thoughts on kissing in visual media
Dec. 7th, 2018 02:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
simplecoffeeA good few years ago, vesperregina and I had a conversation about how heterosexual kisses are usually depicted in onscreen media, sparked by a tangent I went on in a liveblog of the Star Trek: TOS episode Space Seed. I'm archiving that train of thought here from tumblr at her request!
Here's my original ramble from the liveblog:
- [Lieutenant] McGivers is quite the natural sub, hmm?
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, I kinda wish people would sometimes show kisses with the woman’s hands stopping at the man’s waist and not going up to his shoulders. It’s a subtle thing, but it does kind of tie in with the equality of the relationship shown; my protagonists totally switch between the shoulders/waist thing. It depends which one is more vulnerable at the moment, among other things. I realize this doesn’t apply here because this relationship isn’t equal, but yeah, just saying.
(Current thoughts: valid train of thought, but yes this definitely does not apply to Khan and McGivers because he is very clearly the dominant partner in the relationship, and so it makes sense that she'd be the one to place her hands delicately on his shoulders while he holds her in place by the waist.)
After the liveblog, Regina asked if I'd expand on these thoughts - here is her question and my answer:
- Would you expand on your comments about the placement of hands in kissing (shoulders vs. waist) from your "Space Seed" liveblog? I'm curious what the difference means to you. Why is one more equal than the other?
Ah, no, no, one being more equal than the other isn’t what I meant at all - I just phrased it badly, sorry about that. What I meant was that usually when kisses are shown onscreen, there are certain standard positions (I’m assuming the kiss is between a man and a woman, both standing up): the man is shown with his hands at the woman’s waist (or, less often, her jaw) while the woman has her hands around the man’s shoulders (or, less often, in his hair). Which I see as pretty stereotypical as far as gender roles go: the ‘man’s’ positions are more supportive (hands at her waist), demanding (hand(s) at her jaw) and/or assertively possessive (both), while the ‘woman’s’ positions are more requiring/requesting of support, and desperately possessive rather than assertively. I have noticed a few (though only a few) instances where the hands-in-his-hair position is used to show the woman directing the kiss, which is awesome, but at least 95% of the time, these positions ensure the woman is portrayed as the submissive/weaker partner without a word being said.
So what I was trying to say there was that I wish there were more onscreen kisses in which the man is shown leaning on the woman instead, kissing her with his hands at / arms around her shoulders while she braces him at the waist. It took me ages to realize my protagonists (a man and a woman) tend to switch as regards whose hands are where, depending on such things as which of them instigated the kiss and for what reason, which of them is feeling more vulnerable at the moment, which is more turned on, things like that. (They also tend to do a more equal hybrid thing where each of them has one arm around the other’s waist and the other at his/her shoulder from behind.)
My current thoughts on this matter, super super briefly: it...is obviously much more nuanced than this (and, after all, the episode I spoke of above was made in the sixties) - but it is, I think, still broadly true that in onscreen heterosexual kisses, the woman is often subtly shown as the less-assertive partner. So subtly, in fact, that we hardly notice it at all. Let's have more ladies directing their kisses.And more lady Dommes, yes good.
Here's my original ramble from the liveblog:
- [Lieutenant] McGivers is quite the natural sub, hmm?
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, I kinda wish people would sometimes show kisses with the woman’s hands stopping at the man’s waist and not going up to his shoulders. It’s a subtle thing, but it does kind of tie in with the equality of the relationship shown; my protagonists totally switch between the shoulders/waist thing. It depends which one is more vulnerable at the moment, among other things. I realize this doesn’t apply here because this relationship isn’t equal, but yeah, just saying.
(Current thoughts: valid train of thought, but yes this definitely does not apply to Khan and McGivers because he is very clearly the dominant partner in the relationship, and so it makes sense that she'd be the one to place her hands delicately on his shoulders while he holds her in place by the waist.)
After the liveblog, Regina asked if I'd expand on these thoughts - here is her question and my answer:
- Would you expand on your comments about the placement of hands in kissing (shoulders vs. waist) from your "Space Seed" liveblog? I'm curious what the difference means to you. Why is one more equal than the other?
Ah, no, no, one being more equal than the other isn’t what I meant at all - I just phrased it badly, sorry about that. What I meant was that usually when kisses are shown onscreen, there are certain standard positions (I’m assuming the kiss is between a man and a woman, both standing up): the man is shown with his hands at the woman’s waist (or, less often, her jaw) while the woman has her hands around the man’s shoulders (or, less often, in his hair). Which I see as pretty stereotypical as far as gender roles go: the ‘man’s’ positions are more supportive (hands at her waist), demanding (hand(s) at her jaw) and/or assertively possessive (both), while the ‘woman’s’ positions are more requiring/requesting of support, and desperately possessive rather than assertively. I have noticed a few (though only a few) instances where the hands-in-his-hair position is used to show the woman directing the kiss, which is awesome, but at least 95% of the time, these positions ensure the woman is portrayed as the submissive/weaker partner without a word being said.
So what I was trying to say there was that I wish there were more onscreen kisses in which the man is shown leaning on the woman instead, kissing her with his hands at / arms around her shoulders while she braces him at the waist. It took me ages to realize my protagonists (a man and a woman) tend to switch as regards whose hands are where, depending on such things as which of them instigated the kiss and for what reason, which of them is feeling more vulnerable at the moment, which is more turned on, things like that. (They also tend to do a more equal hybrid thing where each of them has one arm around the other’s waist and the other at his/her shoulder from behind.)
My current thoughts on this matter, super super briefly: it...is obviously much more nuanced than this (and, after all, the episode I spoke of above was made in the sixties) - but it is, I think, still broadly true that in onscreen heterosexual kisses, the woman is often subtly shown as the less-assertive partner. So subtly, in fact, that we hardly notice it at all. Let's have more ladies directing their kisses.
no subject
Date: 2018-12-13 11:41 pm (UTC)